Ancient Cryptography
General => Just About Anything => Topic started by: Aaron on September 13, 2004, 06:26:32 PM
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Welcome to the forum and to the Ancient Cryptography SIG, I hope you enjoy the experience! And remember, all ideas have the potential to be the right answer for a cipher, so don't automatically dismiss someone else's ideas just because they might be a bit odd. I expect common courtesy here.
And most of all, have fun! :D
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Hey all (just two so far). Looking forward to some interesting discussions and debates.
Mark
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Hi!
Three now! Looking forward to starting to contribute soon, when life settles down a bit.
Ang
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I'm having a lot of difficulty with this particular site, as it is constantly disconnecting me from my inet provider. Thus, it's hard for me to stay connected for more than a minute or two, as it constantly prompts to connect or work offline. Is anyone else having this issue, or is it just me?
Chris
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That is odd, I haven't had any problems like that. Keep me posted, it might be a result of an unresolved dispute I had with a previous webspace provider with which I used the same domain name (though I cancelled on the same day I got it pretty much). There shouldn't be any conflicts though they still haven't given me my money back or replied to any email I've sent (6 and counting), so I'm not sure what's going on with them.
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By the way, welcome to all the new members! ;D Don't be afraid to post, now. ;)
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Hello all. I look forward to reading what others think about the mysteries here.
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Thanks for the welcome.
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Is anyone still around? I was thinking of setting up a Cipher of the Week that is more easily solvable, as no one has been posting for a while. But I do understand if many of you are in college, as finals are just around the corner for me as well. ;) Good luck with your finals, those who have them!
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Hi Aaron,
A cipher of the week would be a good idea. I do poke my head in here once in a while. I've not had a chance to play with anything lately from the Ancient Cryptogram stuff. Something a smidge less taxing might be a good thing to do.
Just please don't do anything like the least favourite one I've ever worked on... Something along the lines of "If ewe ever want to drive a criptografer crazee, make shure two include alot of mispellings..."
Sheesh - what a bummer if that's part of Elgar's...?
Ang
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Lol, I'm sure there are quite a few ciphers that purposely have bad spelling or bad grammar. ;) Don't worry though, I'll keep mine seplled proper at least. ;)
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Hi! I found this forum via the puzz analogy test thing. Excellant puzzle! Look forward to posting here and great to find a cryptography forum. I once spent some time working out the encoded address of one cryptography society that I read about in a book only to find out after I'd managed to decode it that the book was several decades old and that the society no longer existed!
Yours,
N A Berry
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Hi there. People(s)?
I have never done this posting forum thing before.
So I hope this gets through to at least one other person, so at least I'll feel that it wasn't a total waste of an effort. (echo)
"Anyone? Anyo---nnnn---eeee ? he---r----e?"
Fero
May 31, 2005 2:07 a.m.
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Don't worry, I'm here... just a bit quiet is all. School's been rather busy sadly, but I'll be making some big changes soon. As for everyone else... they joined and went poof I guess. o_O
I don't want to have to be the primary person posting here but I'll try to push things along when I can. All you peoples hiding and waiting for someone else to post, just post already. ;) If you don't like the current things we are looking at, post other things you've found, I love hearing about new and interesting puzzles discovered about the past. And, you can talk about general things as well, that's what this part of the forum is for. ;) Anyone have any inventions they've been meaning to try? Ideas to change the world? Surely something is percolating in those brains.
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Hi,
Not a matter of "poof," just a matter of running crazy...
Ang
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Hello Aaron and anyone else. Has anyone tried to decode the codes in the back of Dan Brown's books. I can across the paper where I wrote down the code in "Digital Fortress". I believe it may have something to do with ceasars magic square formula.
128-10-93-85-10-128-98-112-6-6-25-126-39-1-68-78
I am interested but a newbie with this any help anyone?
Sandra
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I've never read any of his books, I'll get that one and see what context the code is in. That may provide a clue.
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Hi
Thanks for the welcome, looking forward to participate in some codebreaking.
Neil
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Howdy! I'm a new addition to this forum...looking forward to learning something here.
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I have a passing interest in cryptography and was wondering which books on the subject are worth getting. I looked at Amazon and found several interesting titles including _Elementary Cryptanalysis: A Mathematical Approach_ by Abraham Sinkov and _The Code Book: The Science of Secrecy from Ancient Egypt to Quantum Cryptography_ by Simon Singh.
I'm interested in texts that contain actual codes with helpful hints for cracking some and others which have as yet to be deciphered. I have looked at the Elonka website, elonka.com/UnsolvedCodes.html, and found it interesting and thought perhaps there are books containing mostly texts of such codes just waiting to be tackled.
I would like to get such a book for a Christmas present for my father who was an Army crytptologist. Any other suggestions?
Thanks.
Cindy Smith
cms@RomanCatholic.org
cms@dragon.com
Wisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number that stands for a person. His number is six hundred and sixty-six. -- Revelation 13:8
Would anyone like to try to crack the code of Revelation? :-)
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The Revelation is an unusual animal indeed... methinks it would be a little daunting even if there were a hidden cipher. ;)
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The Revelation is an unusual animal indeed... methinks it would be a little daunting even if there were a hidden cipher. ;)
Aaron,
The Revelation to John is indeed an unusual critter because it is written mostly in code. The early Christians were fearful that their letters and other writings would be captured by the Romans, leading to many deaths, so works such as this one were written in code. An example is the word "Babylon" -- this is the code word for "Rome." Like much Jewish literature of the time, it also makes use of gematria/numerology, and you must understand that code, too, to decipher the meaning of the messages. In the Gospels, take a look at the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves in Matthew 14 and 15 (also Mark 6, Luke 9, and John 6). In the first, there are five loaves and two fish, in the second version, there are seven loaves and a few fish; also, there are 12 baskets of leftover in the first and 7 in the second. In the first story Jesus feeds 5,000 people and in the second version 4,000 people. One interpretation I have read is that the seven loaves represents the traditional number of gentile nations while 12 represents the number of Jewish tribes. In one story, the gentiles must become Jewish to become Christian, while in the other story, the meaning is that the gentiles will become Christian yet remain gentiles. In John 21:11, Peter, at the behest of Jesus, pulls in 153 large fish. There has been much speculation about the meaning of this number. Jerome claims that the Greeks catalogued 153 different species of fish, so the catch is meant to symbolize all the nations of the world. Or 153 is the sum of numbers from 1 to 17. Or it references Ezekiel 47:10. There are many other examples of numerology in the Bible. Also, the Zohar, a book of Jewish mysticism, is written in code, and, if you don't understand the code, you cannot understand what it means. I studied the Zohar with a rabbi at Emory and learned to decode the text of the Zohar, and it was fascinating. I hope to take an advanced course again someday.
Cindy Smith
cms@RomanCatholic.org
"As for you, Daniel, keep secret the message and seal the book until the end time; many shall fall away and evil shall increase. -- Daniel 12:4
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Wow, that's amazing! I had heard vague talk about ciphers in the Bible but I didn't know that the meanings themselves hinged upon special codes. Are today's translations literally deciphered versions of the Bible in some sense or is it purely that certain words are placeholders for other words?
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Aaron,
Sometimes words have direct substitutes as in "Babylon" for "Rome." An early Christian symbol was the fish. This is because, in Greek, the acronym ICTHUS stood for Greek letters beginning the phrase "Jesus Christ Son of God Saviour." The word "ichthus" itself means "fish." When traveling Christians saw the sign of the fish as grafitti, they knew that there were Christians in the area. The Bible contains a lot of numerology/gematria, as I said. I only touched the surface. Certainly, the Talmud has a lot of gematria, too. If you are a preterist, as I tend to be, you believe that most of Revelation is not necessarily a portent of future events but is largely about the defeat of the Romans by the Parthians, among other events. Obviously, Christians couldn't report about this gleefully in the open, so they wrote in code. If anyone questioned them from the Roman authorities, they'd just say, "Oh, this is about ancient Babylon in the Hebrew Scriptures." One of the reasons why many scholars believe that Peter preached in Rome is because 1 Peter 5:13 says, "The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son." Who do you think the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are? Who are the angels? Who are the two witnesses? Speculations abound on these questions. It's sometimes difficult to decipher because the readers at the time in the first century knew a lot more than we do about what was going on. An interesting question is who is the woman of Revelation 12? Most scholars today believe that the woman represents virgin Israel, while some maintain that she is the Virgin Mary and still others believe she is both. I think she is both. A lot are symbols. An example is the white amulet (white stone) mentioned in Revelation 2:17 and the hidden manna. Among the Romans, the god emperor held a staff with seven stars in his right hand, and the author of revelation uses this phrase on 2:1 to mean that Christ is the true god emperor. Oh, don't get me started. I could go on and on.
Cindy Smith
cms@RomanCatholic.org
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. -- Revelation 22:13
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Hello, I'm new. I finally cracked the "Code of The Week" after 4-5 hours of logging in. I hope to be able to contribute, and rejuvenate this place a little.
Best Regards.
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Awesome! :) I hope you enjoy your stay, and we are currently working on a listserv to keep everyone more involved.
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Also, my apologies to any delays in accepting new forum members, I am currently in finals week.
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I loved the puzzle to get in, actually a friend sent me the phrase and I was trying to solve it when I found this site. Awesome, truly.
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;D
Actually, one of the forum members made that puzzle as part of his website, I just gave him permission to design it so he could attract more members. ;) But I'm glad you found your way here. :)
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hi tigerz
you are right in assuming this is a ceaser square. Youll notice that there are 16 numbers in total i.e 4x4
the numbers correspond to the chapter and if you take the first letter from the start of each chapter and arrange them as a ceaser square:
w e c g
e w h y
a a i o
r t n u
which reads "we are watching you". Dan Brown really seems to like his ceaser squares :S
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An excellent game for anyone who likes puzzles would be Gabriel Knight, especially the third one. It tackles topics that are similar to what is mentioned in the Davinci Code, namely san greal vs sang real (holy grail vs royal blood) and the lineage of Christ.
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Hi all, I am looking forward to some interesting and stimulating conversation here. :)
Anne
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Welcome! :) Any interesting ciphers you have come across lately?
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Brand spanking new newbie here. Just wanted to say hi.
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Hello Stun. :) What's your favorite cipher?
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Gee Aaron, That is question with a few different answers. The first one that interested me is the Lewis and Clark expedition to the President. Learned about that in school just after I first stared to get into cyphers. Now my son brings this one up when he learns about it in school. Stirs up fascination from 30+ years ago. It was not a great cypher but it was the first that was explained to me. My son and I sometimes leave messages to each other the same way that L&C did with the President Another favorite is the Zodiac killer cypher. I have been working on this one off and on, in my own humble way since I learned that the first three were solved. I am not into Vigenère ciphers at all. I really do not understand any second alphabets. I barely know our alphabet ;D. Kryptos fascinated me even though there are some who are thinking of Egyptian references, they are also looking for linguists to help solve this one (Linguists to help translate some passages on other sculptures). Again, a second alphabet is not my strong suit. But there are other avenues to persue this one. No, I am not attempting to solve this one alone. That would be insane. I am trying to work(in my own humble way) with other groups. There are others cyphers but this is starting to get too long. Nice to meet you. Any new info about Zodiac or Kryptos would sure be appreciated.
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Yes, all of those sound very interesting. ;D The Zodiac Killer one is certainly intriguing, and supposedly they have a list of possible suspects but still don't know exactly who might have done it all. It would be odd if all the deaths were carefully orchestrated suicides, and the people who died all paid the same person for an elaborate way to look professionally "killed".
But then, that's stealing the plot of another movie entirely, maybe even two movies.
*plans to watch the Zodiac Killer movie one day, even if it might be a bit gruesome*
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I have just very recently came across another cypher that I have not seen mentioned here in any forum. I want to read more about it before I post. Will probably ask others opinions if they think it is real or a hoax. Seems interesting to me but questions seem to surround it.
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Even hoaxes can have an interesting history, as long as no one tries to find the treasure if it is indeed a hoax.
And then there's plain delusion...
*recalls the one story he read about a guy who consulted a seer who told him that a ghost said something about treasure being buried on his land, so he dug a deeper and deeper hole for the rest of his life*
Also, an interesting puzzle book to read that includes ciphers is Puzzler's Elusion. If you figure out the answer and win the drawing (all the people who guessed right), you get a free trip to London. ;) I plan to buy that book soon...
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Aaron, I agree that even a hoax cypher can have an interesting history. The one that I researching now has an interesting thread battle whether it is real or a hoax. I will probably post it in "Other Mysteries" probably this weekend. Debate it and see what happens. The good thing is that the debators and the quizzical people here are limited and would not contain any phony family members as compared to the other sites that I have seen it on. Maybe some here have already seen it.
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It's possible, I look forward to seeing what you decide to post about the matter. :)
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The Revelation to John is indeed an unusual critter because it is written mostly in code. The early Christians were fearful that their letters and other writings would be captured by the Romans, leading to many deaths, so works such as this one were written in code. An example is the word "Babylon" -- this is the code word for "Rome." Like much Jewish literature of the time, it also makes use of gematria/numerology, and you must understand that code, too, to decipher the meaning of the messages. In the Gospels, take a look at the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves in Matthew 14 and 15 (also Mark 6, Luke 9, and John 6). In the first, there are five loaves and two fish, in the second version, there are seven loaves and a few fish; also, there are 12 baskets of leftover in the first and 7 in the second. In the first story Jesus feeds 5,000 people and in the second version 4,000 people. One interpretation I have read is that the seven loaves represents the traditional number of gentile nations while 12 represents the number of Jewish tribes. In one story, the gentiles must become Jewish to become Christian, while in the other story, the meaning is that the gentiles will become Christian yet remain gentiles. In John 21:11, Peter, at the behest of Jesus, pulls in 153 large fish. There has been much speculation about the meaning of this number. Jerome claims that the Greeks catalogued 153 different species of fish, so the catch is meant to symbolize all the nations of the world. Or 153 is the sum of numbers from 1 to 17.
Hi Everyone --
I am new to this forum -- found it listed as Ancient Cryptography SIG in the March 2007 M-Bulletin and had to take a look. I haven't explored the site yet -- this welcome thread is my first stop, but the idea of "Bible Cyphers" is one I find fascinating!!! Is there a seperate thread for discussion of this topic?  :o If so, lead me to it. I am extremely curious about any and all ciphers (in a passive rather than active way) and would very much like to see more on this particular topic.
I particulatly enjoy ancient and historical (rather than modern) cryptography, and am more interested in philosophical, scientific, and religious rather than military ciphers. Happy to see spirited discussions by avid intellects!
Regards, :D kleigh2
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Hi kleigh and welcome. I am sure that you will get a response from Aaron. A great guy. He knows this forum better than anyone.
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Kleigh2,
Welcome to the forums! ciphers in bibles and other religious texts are plentiful indeed, so I decided to make a section on the forum related to it. I believe one of our other members is equally interested in the subject. ;)
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Hi Everyone,
I seen this SIG in the Mensa Bulletin and wanted to check.
1. Assume I don't know a single thing about cryptography
2. What is the good point to start (web Page, book etc.)
3. Is there a better method to learn (proven)
Thanks in advance for all
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The basic concept of cryptography is really rather simple... there are various different classes of cryptography with the easy ones being substitution based and harder ones being based on a prearranged code that translates the data... even harder ciphers might use patterns found in nature or mathematics such as prime numbers or the digits of pi. There are many specialized ciphers that use a series of techniques to truly mix up the data (such as combining substitution ciphers with prime number replacement). There are also ciphers that depend partially on the medium they are written on, such as the pinhole cipher in which the encrypter leaves a tiny pinhole above each letter of the actual message using an innocent medium like a newspaper.
http://www.antilles.k12.vi.us/math/cryptotut/encarta_intro.htm is a good summary of various aspects of cryptography, and there are many books on the subject at your local library; quite a few have examples that walk you through the process. I would highly recommend looking in the younger sections (J or YP) as they are more likely to be easier to learn from, often with great pictures and the history behind different ciphers.
And once you understand how to decode ciphers that exist, you can start making your own! ;)
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Hi All,
I just arrived here. Thought I'd mention this site as it seem interesting:
http://starbase.trincoll.edu/~crypto/
Also this page on the site about Simon Singh's book "The Code Book", on Cryptograms is good, though it's better to read the book!
http://www.simonsingh.net/Cryptograms.html
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Thanks for joining! :D I like the Cryptogram of the Week in that first link you posted.
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I'm new to this SIG (as well as Mensa) but very much look forward to exploring these posts. I've read a little bit of this site, and look forward to taking a stab at some of the "unsolved" cryptograms.
I'm off to read some more, but hopefully will be able to add whatever I can to the discussions.
Thanks!
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Good luck! :D All approaches are welcome. ;)
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Hi everyone,
Glad I found this site - looking forward to sharing some old ciphers with you.
Tony
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Thanks for your contributions! :)
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Hi all, my name is Antonino Chirco.
I am an international members.
Happy to share knowledge with you.
Kind regards from Italy.
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Enjoy your stay, Antonino! :)
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Hi Antonio,
A while ago I came across a cipher (dated 1590) – 2 sheets, one of which is the other written backwards apart from the last line – it contains about 130 ‘words’ only about 20 to 25 appear to be Italian when applying a caesar shift of minus 1 – I tried to translate it with a dictionary but didn’t get very far – if you, or anybody is fluent in Italian and would like to have a look at it & see if they can sort it out I’ll email it as it’s a bit to big to post here. Just email me and put subject '1590' and I'll send you a copy as an attachment.
Tony
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I am a graduate student in classical philology (I am a Latinist, to be exact). I do greatly enjoy puzzles and I have a growing interest in elementary cryptology.
Cheers!
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Welcome aboard, Eloise! :)
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Hi Eloise,
A 13th century colophon for you using a very elementary cipher -
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii112/tony59b/colophon.gif)
I've always wondered what it says - hope you can tell me?!
Tony
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Perhaps I should have given it in modern characters -
Pfnnb prfcpr skstf qxpnkbm lkbfr explkckt kstf
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I am not quite certain of that transliteration of yours. Are you sure it is correct?
Simple letter substitution, right?
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The encipherer has advanced one letter on the vowels only -
ie. the first word is 'penna'
remember there was no 'j' 'v' or 'w' in the alphabet then so 'i' is represented by 'k' and 'u' by 'x'
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Eloise,
pfnnb prfcpr skstf qxpnkbm lkbfr explkckt kstf
penna precor siste quoniam liber explicit iste
an online translator came up with the following translation -
'feather to beseech to check since free explanation that'
plfbsf cbn ypv gjvf mf b bfttfr pnf?
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I've been addicted to cryptograms since I was in high school, however, I've never taken the time to learn more about the field of cryptography. I was really hoping that this would be a good place to learn more. It might also give me an opportunity to brush the cobwebs off of all of the linguistics, grammar and etymology books I have. I took the courses and it would be nice to put them to some use before I die.
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Welcome, Vigrid! :D I mostly just know the basics of cryptography myself, but it's fun trying to figure out what people were thinking when they encrypted something particularly challenging.
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I'm still learning how the forum operates, but I can't figure out how you can know when someone comments on a comment or a post you've made.
The only reason why I found your welcoming comment to my first post was to go back and search for the first post myself. I think the web site looks great and it is a wonderful idea, but it could be a bit more user friendly. Maybe if we have a tutorial thread on how to use the available features more effectively, it would make it easier getting started.
Just a thought. I did not want to sound critical. It looks like you've put a lot of work into this site.
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Thanks. The forum itself is actually pre-made though (Simple Machines Forum software); I just chose what theme to use. If you look at the links at the top and bottom of every thread, there's one that says Notify, which basically lets you choose whether or not to be notified when someone replies.
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Ahhhhh ... that makes sense. A good thing to know.
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I'm totally very completely brand new here. This is an awesome forum, I can't wait to explore it's every nook and cranny. Do we get refreshments and free sandwiches? I demand a response to my inquiry!
Much riddly regard,
~deBjørn
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Sure thing! Here's your complimentary roast beef sandwich. :D
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Sure thing! Here's your complimentary roast beef sandwich. :D
Thank you!
Much riddly regard,
~deBjørn