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51
Voynich Manuscript / Re: Computation approach to Circular Astrolabes
« Last post by dodonovan on July 08, 2013, 10:27:40 AM »
Phil,

This comes from someone without any natural talent for languages, near-total ignorance of cipher-things, and only the faintest residue of training in  linguistics ~  so cum grano.

Earliest influence in the imagery c.5thC BC, latest apart from written text I put about the 3rdC, before recension in the 12th-13th.  So this will range, just a bt.

If there's ever a sweepstakes, put me down for early Hellenistic texts, written in glossary style, taking characters (glyphs) from as many as  seven languages to form a set by which all are represented. Basically a Yemeni-influenced Greek script, I'd guess.
If enciphered, probably by using some wheel system.. a la Alberti, but not his.

Seven languages turn up as a common number spoken by traders, so I'm opting for seven different languages that form the glossary, phonetically rendered using the one set of glyphs.

This script was made by a group who so very strongly avoided any 'x' shape that they use it neither in their script, nor in imagery, nor does the manuscript use the Roman 'x' for ten.

 I read this as tabu to do with the southern 'hell' and perhaps Argo ratis constellation.  Not Byzantine Greeks - they also place the 'x' for the southern limit of the world, but draw it there and keep the Chai in their scrpt.

 A related tabu in the manuscript is avoidance of interlace - *very* rare tabu for any Mediterranean peoples.  Cross-shapes and knots being avoided is typical of some  mariners and some peoples across North Africa (see Westermarck, for example). And, I almost forgot, it is characteristic of dynastic Egypt, especially before Alexander. So a mariner-people is possible.

 One of the languages  among the 'glossary's seven may well be New Persian, but I strongly suspect an old Yemeni dialect there somewhere, unless the text was newly rendered in the fifteenth century.  In that case, I'm tempted to include instead Genoese and perhaps even English (Old- or Middle).

Judging by those stylistics which highlight distinctions between the various sections,  some of the basic Hellenistic matter derived from a community in Egypt; more from northern Syria and the elbow between Asia Minor and the Syrian coast.  Interaction between the two regions was constant, from the ancient to the modern era, so 'national' limits don't really apply, although regional affect is still evident in the imagery.

A distinctive 5-element system is found one folio. It's not the European system of elements  and points (I think) to Manichaean influence of a type   pervasive through the southern Mediterraean to about the 3rd or 4th C AD.  It then travels as far as China, just to make things trickier.

There are some areas where all these influences might be found in close proximity in the earlier centuries AD -  Lycopolis in Egypt is one. Pehaps Canopus, or Alexandria two more.

I confess that I'm putting all this here mainly for the fun of it; after five years I've no illusion that I'll be heard.

Unlike some Voynicheros excited by owning a theory they've developed for their own, I have only 'my conclusions' and presently fairly uninterested even in them. 

Voynich'd out.
 :D

Cheers.
52
D'Agapeyeff Cipher / A Look at possible overlapping sub-ciphers A & B
« Last post by Cat on July 06, 2013, 12:40:43 AM »
Right now, I am working on the premise that there are two ciphers that overlap each other, and that  neither use a polybius square but a simple alphabet count after a certain point.

"D'Agapeyeff Cipher" number series (original format)

75628 28591 62916 48164 91748 58464 74748 28483 81638 18174
74826 26475 83828 49175 74658 37575 75936 36565 81638 17585
75756 46282 92857 46382 75748 38165 81848 56485 64858 56382
72628 36281 81728 16463 75828 16483 63828 58163 63630 47481
91918 46385 84656 48565 62946 26285 91859 17491 72756 46575
71658 36264 74818 28462 82649 18193 65626 48484 91838 57491
81657 27483 83858 28364 62726 26562 83759 27263 82827 27283
82858 47582 81837 28462 82837 58164 75748 58162 92000

Further broken down into grid pairs with the last final three "0"s dropped:

75 62 82 85 91 62 91 64 81 64 91 74 85 84
64 74 74 82 84 83 81 63 81 81 74 74 82 62
64 75 83 82 84 91 75 74 65 83 75 75 75 93
63 65 65 81 63 81 75 85 75 75 64 62 82 92
85 74 63 82 75 74 83 81 65 81 84 85 64 85
64 85 85 63 82 72 62 83 62 81 81 72 81 64
63 75 82 81 64 83 63 82 85 81 63 63 63 04
74 81 91 91 84 63 85 84 65 64 85 65 62 94
62 62 85 91 85 91 74 91 72 75 64 65 75 71
65 83 62 64 74 81 82 84 62 82 64 91 81 93
65 62 64 84 84 91 83 85 74 91 81 65 72 74
83 83 85 82 83 64 62 72 62 65 62 83 75 92
72 63 82 82 72 72 83 82 85 84 75 82 81 83
72 84 62 82 83 75 81 64 75 74 85 81 62 92

Numbers in the "AB AB AB AB . . ." series (read from left to right, top to bottom) are then re-GROUPED as "AAAA . . . " and "BBBB . . ." for two, separate messages.


Cipher B: Numbers need to be re-divided again, and then read and copied backwards, after assigning their value on an "A to Z" 26 letter scale.


52 25 12 14 14 14 54 = [4 5-14-4 1-14 1-22-5 2-5] = D END AA DA WE BE
44 42 43 13 11 44 22 = [2-24 14 1 13 3 24 4 4 4] = BX N AMB DDDD
45 32 41 54 53 55 53 =
35 51 31 55 55 42 22 =
54 32 54 31 51 45 45 =
45 53 22 23 21 12 14 =
35 21 43 32 51 33 34 =
41 11 43 54 54 55 24 =
22 51 51 41 25 45 51 =
53 24 41 24 22 41 13 =
52 44 41 35 41 15 24 =
33 52 34 22 25 23 52 = [2-5 23
23 22 22 32 54 52 13 = [3-21-5 4 25 23 2-2 2-23] = CUE D Y X BB BX =
24 22 35 14 54 51 22 = [2-12-5-4 5 14-5-23-2 24] = B LED NEW BX

I will post more as it goes, but thought people might be interested in this new theory enough for me to ask for opinions.
 


53
Voynich Manuscript / Re: Computation approach to Circular Astrolabes
« Last post by Phil_The_Rodent on July 05, 2013, 02:24:06 AM »
Could be. I'm mostly thinking North Africa and related regions (middle east). There is, I think, around 3000 African languages currently, many with few native speakers. Any sort of tribe that would have some amount of influence from both the Afroasiatic and Semetic groups could be candidates.

Again, I think it's a dead language. Hence my interest in the comparison to proper nouns from other languages in the thread.
54
A Wild Pigeon Theory (that could still be shot down):

I: Take letter groupings vertically to the first period mark.

AOAKN
RQXSR
PABUZ
NLXKG
UAOTA.

II: Let the period mark the beginning of the current sentence, and arrange words to be read from bottom to top, right to left fashion.

AOAKN RQXSR PABUZ NLXKG UAOTA.

III:  Look for military and common abbreviations, and divide by trial and error.

ATO : AU : GK : XL : NZ : UB : APR : SX : QR :  NKAOA

IV: Translation attempt (with most likely Huge Errors (tm))

Allied Theatre of Operations: Gold : General 1000 : 40 : Nazi : U-Boats : Approach : Essex : Quarter
55
Edward Elgar's Dorabella Cipher / Maybe we are closer than we think to an answer
« Last post by Cat on July 04, 2013, 09:30:30 PM »
STEP I (this is the  frustrating pig pen "gibberish" we have so far, courtesy of Nick Pelling's site)

BLTACEIARWUNISNFNNELLHSYWYDUO
INIEYARQATNNTEDMINUNEHOMSYRRYUO
TOEHO’TSHGDOTNEHMOSALDOEADYA

STEP II (putting the letters in a fixed width font so the are easier to deal with)

B L T A C E I A R W U N I S N F N N E L L H S Y W Y D U O
I N I E Y A R Q A T N N T E D M I N U N E H O M S Y R R Y U O
T O E H O ' S S H G D O T N E H M O S A L D O E A D Y A

STEP III (assuming they may be read vertically, top to bottom then bottom to top, left to right)


B     L T     A C    E I     A R     W U      N I     S N     F N     N E     L L
 I   N   I   E   Y  A   R   Q   A   T   N   N    T   E   D   M   I   N   U   N   E
  T O     E H     O'     S S     H G     D O      T N     E H     M O     S A     L


     H S     Y W     Y D     U
    H   O   M   S   Y   R   R   Y U O
...D     O E     A D     Y A


STEP IV(rewriting the letters in the new arrangement)


B I T O N L T I E H E A C Y O' A E R I S S Q A R A H G T W U N D O N N I T T N E S N D E H M F N I M O N N E U S A N L L E L D H H S O O E M Y W S A D Y Y D R Y A R U O H U O

STEP V(what I have so far)

"B (I)*-TON L TIE HE AC (TH)**O (AERIS)*** SQ (ARA)**** .  . . ."

*"I" may be the Roman Numeral "One", in which case the pronunciation of the first part would be "B wanton L tie"
**"Y" = "TH" in Old English
***"ERIS" is the ancient Greek goddess of "discord", but "AERIS" is from the Norse for something else, as she was an Earth Goddess, I think. . .
****"ARA" is the Greek constellation of the "altar" where alliances were forged

Tentative translation so far:

"By wanton love tie he act though Aeris square altar . . ."


(Could this be a romance/marriage proposal that was dodged?)
56
D'Agapeyeff Cipher / Re: The Cipher Whose Solution Was Forgotten
« Last post by Cat on July 03, 2013, 11:01:12 PM »
Something strange going on here - if this was based on a 5x5 matrix filled with the alphabet (keyword or not) - then the lowest frqcy numbers 92,93,71,94,04 should represent the low frqcy consonants - writing the cipher in a 14x14 grid they all fall in the final column - the odds against this are astronomical - I think these numbers may not represent letters at all - maybe we should be thinking cartographically rather than cryptograhically!


75 62 82 85 91 62 91 64 81 64 91 74 85 84
64 74 74 82 84 83 81 63 81 81 74 74 82 62
64 75 83 82 84 91 75 74 65 83 75 75 75 93
63 65 65 81 63 81 75 85 75 75 64 62 82 92
85 74 63 82 75 74 83 81 65 81 84 85 64 85
64 85 85 63 82 72 62 83 62 81 81 72 81 64
63 75 82 81 64 83 63 82 85 81 63 63 63 04
74 81 91 91 84 63 85 84 65 64 85 65 62 94
62 62 85 91 85 91 74 91 72 75 64 65 75 71
65 83 62 64 74 81 82 84 62 82 64 91 81 93
65 62 64 84 84 91 83 85 74 91 81 65 72 74
83 83 85 82 83 64 62 72 62 65 62 83 75 92
72 63 82 82 72 72 83 82 85 84 75 82 81 83
72 84 62 82 83 75 81 64 75 74 85 81 62 92


Tony
. What if we are looking at all the first numbers between 6 and 0 belonging to 1 grid set, and all the numbers between 1 and 5 belonging to a 2nd, overlapping and slightly different grid set.

With that in mind, I tried it out, and (with u/v in the same cell for the 5x5) got for the first line:

76 88 96 96 86 97 88 67 = F N E E D K N B = "first need key, note bene . . .)

For the other numbers, you have (after keeping the same grid but shifting "z" to the "a" slot and moving everything down 1 unit

52 25 12 14 14 14 54 = I V E O O O S " = "I've 3 'o's"

This would reveal a possible total overlapping line 1 message of "F NEED K   N.B. I'VE 000S"

Here is the grid for 6-0

  6 7 8 9 0
6 a b c d e
7 f g h i j
8 k l m n o
9 p q r s t
0 u/v w x y z

Gris 1-5

  1 2  3 4 5
1 z a b c d
2 e f g h i
3 j k l m n
4 o p q r s
5 t u/v w x y z
57
Voynich Manuscript / Re: Computation approach to Circular Astrolabes
« Last post by dodonovan on July 01, 2013, 08:50:30 AM »
Phil
"localized non-Semetic Afroasiatic language which exhibits some Semetic tendencies".

Would a minor dialect of Judeo-Persian do?

- just asking. Don't have a candidate.

Diane
58
Beale Papers / Beale III Thoughts
« Last post by Cat on June 29, 2013, 11:01:29 PM »
Sorry if I am late to the party and this has already been solved, but I haven't heard much about Cipher III.  I attached a spreadsheet of my work-in-progress (which is slow, and error prone) because I *think* at this point I am getting names.

I used the line breaks on the cipher table, keeping the pamphlet photocopy listed in the online Archives.

I then separated the number groups in rows that were divided by commas into two groups, going ABABABABAB... until there were none left.  (So 318=A, 8=b, 92=A . . .)
This was because I wanted to see if two separate messages were overlapping each other.

I then broke apart the original numbers, (318 became 3, 1, 8 ) and worked on the theory that they were equations without proper addition or subtractions signs, but once the signs were in place, there would be a matrix pattern of sorts.  After several false starts, 3, 1, 8 became +3-18=-15, 8 became -8, 92 became 9+2=11, and 73 became 7+3=10. 

The overall equation matrix pattern seems to be one of subtraction, subtraction, addition, addition, subtraction, subtraction, addition, addition . . .

I then tried matching the results against a simple 5x5 alphabet grid, where "I" and"J" shared the same cell.  (I tried several other grid arrangements, but it was this one that worked.)

Then I just found the proper grid cell number by counting from 1-25 (A-Z) forward when the equation answer was positive, or Z to A when the equation result was negative.

Here are the names I have so far, no anagramming, and falling withing the natural line breaks:

Line 1:   "Su Burn, ILL"     "Patze Cmzs, KS"
Line 2:  "M XD Sea-Qtm"      "WF M.L. Goelz"
Line 3:  "O.T.  K 0dx PB O.T."  "K. Zbl, DD, EA O" <-- (doctor of dentistry, east circle?)
Line4:   "W.L. on NE Fk U" (I know there is a north-east fork in the Bedford area . . .)

Would have attached my spreadsheet, but it is a bit too big.

Comments welcome...(though my online contact will be spotty until Wednesday)

Change line 1 to "Su Brunil, V"   "At Zecmz, KS" because the "P" rightfully belongs on line 2 and the first number was 317, not 318. (My miscopy, caught by a friend :)

Also, line 2 may be "McD, SEA-QTM", where "X" is actually "C", and the second part is "WF M. L . GOELZP" -- which I would pronounce "go-less-py".

Will be adding more after a friend finishes a Java program to help with the basic math possibilities.
59
Other Mysteries / Re: Ciphers in Literature - Mystery of the Sea
« Last post by Knox on June 25, 2013, 05:18:08 PM »


I finally got back to this and found some information in the appendices.

Bacon writing in 1605: "to write Omnia per Omnia, which is undoubtedly possible, with a proportion _Quintuple at most_, of the writing infoulding, to the writing infoulded."

[At MOST 1:5 plaintext to ciphertext]

Eighteen years later he writes:
"that the infoulding writing shall contain _at least five times as many letters_ as the writing infoulded"--

[At LEAST 1:5 plaintext to ciphertext]

Stoker assumes the Bacon brothers, Anthony and Francis, exchanged letters in an "at most" cipher and the later published statement (about the "at least" cipher) was to draw attention away from Francis' former statement.

Stoker's protagonist goes on to develop a multi-step cipher beginning with a verison of Bacon's supposed "at least" cipher. This is the method used to create a third writing at the beginning of the book, that I did not mention in the first post, and which our hero deciphers.

Phase One:

Let the odd numbers according to their values stand for "a":

      a=1
     aa=3
    aaa=5
   aaaa=7
  aaaaa=9

and the even numbers according to their values stand for "b":

      b=2
     bb=4
    bbb=6
   bbbb=8
  bbbbb=0


  Thus aaaaa will be as shown 9
       aaaab will be as shown 72
       aaaba will be as shown 521

I should not have paired the digits.

Some of the original 5-letter groups are not needed and can be put to other uses.

There is a table to show the final substitutions to make a dot cipher.

Stoker wrote:
It is however manifest from certain evidence, that Bacon practised his special cipher and used it for many years. Lady Bacon, mother of the philosopher, writing in 1593, to her son Anthony, elder brother of Francis, speaking of him, Francis, says, "I do not understand his enigmatical folded writing."

Too bad we don't have Anthony's diary.




60
Voynich Manuscript / Re: Computation approach to Circular Astrolabes
« Last post by dodonovan on June 06, 2013, 02:38:35 AM »
Phil,
Totally brilliant of you to find this! Thanks for the link.

D
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